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  1. #1

    Premises Upgrade

    Model :

    Hardware Version :

    Firmware Version :

    ISP : [/COLOR]

    Hello I am looking for some advice on a wireless premises upgrade.

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    A) Has a 100Mbps Internet connection with a modem/router which has a POE cable running to (B)
    B) Currently has this device http://tinyurl.com/lm6m7xh on the roof of (B) 3 meters high pointing at (C)
    C) is the building that mobile phone and laptops will be used by 10-100 clients and is a 3 story high brick building with rooms opening/facing towards (B)
    D) is the rear perimeter of the premises and is 60.34 meters from the current wireless base station on (B)

    The current setup with the old base station in the link above is working but seems very limited both in bandwidth and signal.
    Connecting to the old base station using WPA2 yields around 11Mbps at the "back of the building" on the diagram where 1-7 is located.

    From my limited knowledge I am wondering if someone could tell me if this is the correct equipment to replace the old base station on (B) with (I would like to use 2.4Ghz radio for compatability)
    1) 2.4GHz 300Mbps Outdoor Wireless Base Station (WBS210)
    2) 2.4G 15dBi 2x2 MIMO Sector Antenna (TL-ANT2415MS)

    If this is the correct equipment could I expect better performance here for speeds and coverage with the new setup within the 60meter zone and to both end of the building 1-7?
    Do I need CPE's for the initial setup or can they be added at a later date?
    I am guessing the above equipment can be used stand alone to provide wifi to the premises clients devices best utilising the 100mbps Internet connection?
    One of my fears is the price on the old base station it seems significantly higher than the proposed new equipment?

    Thank you in advance to anyone who can help shed some light on this for me.

  2. #2
    At point A install a wireless base with sector antenna addressed to B and in B, C and D a CPE, at each location a TL-WR841HP V3 router.
    There should be good line of sight to B, C, and D.
    Last edited by Johnsontp; 05-06-2017 at 09:43.

  3. #3
    Thanks for taking a look but that setup doesn't seem to make sense at all.
    Point (B) is only 9 meters away from point (A) and which has a POE cable running to (B).
    Point (A) already has its own wifi.
    (B) to (D) has no line of sight because (C) is a three story building?
    Installing wireless routers in B, C, D they would get stolen and D is outdoors.
    We are looking to install a high power antenna on (B) that uses the POE connection from (A) to cover the whole premises indoor and outdoor.

  4. #4
    Of course the setup Johnsontp suggests makes sense.

    What does not make sense is to try to feed smart phones over 60 meters with walls in between. It's a common error to assume that a single fat antenna for an AP would help in such situations, since not only the AP has to send radio signals to the smart phone, but the smart phone also has to send something back in order to be able to exchange data. Maybe, with a completely free line of sight this could work over 60 meters, but definitely not with walls, buildings or any other obstacles in between. Even for a WBS to CPE radio link you need a free LoS if you want a stable link.

  5. #5
    Most of the mobile/laptop connections will be from (A) to (B) which is 10-15 metres and (B) has LOS to (A) through the front of the rooms.
    From 1-7 to (D) is just a bonus if the connection is good. Hopefully not many people will be standing at the back fence trying to connect.

    Sorry for all the questions but it is very hard to find real world information on these products.
    1) Would the Tp-Link products (WBS210) & (TL-ANT2415MS) improve on what the current device does http://tinyurl.com/lm6m7xh ?
    2) What is the coverage range of these two devices using them on the roof of (B) as an AP.

    If I go with Johnsontp's setup
    1) What is the range of the TL-WR841HP V3 router?
    2) How many of these devices would I need to connect in a three story brick building with 30 rooms separated by brick walls?
    3) Wouldn't a better setup be to have the (WBS210) & (TL-ANT2415MS) on the roof of (B) with a single CPE on (C) with LOS?

    I am just confused as the current 10 year old device seems to work it is just slow I assume limited due to the 802.11b with the new 100Mbps Internet connection.
    I am open to suggestions and didn't mean to sound rude to Johnsontp and I like the idea he has suggested.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by beamboy View Post
    Most of the mobile/laptop connections will be from (A) to (B) which is 10-15 metres and (B) has LOS to (A) through the front of the rooms.
    That could be o.k. I used a WBS with a sector antenna to supply WiFi for end-user devices through a metal construction over a distance of 12 meters and since metal is a critical obstacle, the signal can be received through the windows only (glass is uncritical if not coated.

    Sorry for all the questions but it is very hard to find real world information on these products.
    Since it always strongly depends on local conditions, it's difficult to provide such information as wether the WBS will be better than your current device. If you want to do a professional installation, you would have to do radio measurement at the place to get exact figures (I do so at customer places before deciding which gear to install). Of course, this means you have to set up an AP with the antenna to be able to do such measurements.

    2) What is the coverage range of these two devices using them on the roof of (B) as an AP.
    For end-user clients the coverage range is the coverage range of the end-user devices. That's why Johnsontp suggest to use local APs indoor for client devices. Local APs such as the WR841 have much better antennas then smart phones and tablets. See, your current device almost certainly performs bad, b/c signal strength of client devices is weak. But 10 meters should be no problem even through a wall if it is not ferroconcrete.

    If I go with Johnsontp's setup
    1) What is the range of the TL-WR841HP V3 router?


    I would say it's about 20 to 30 meters indoor with a wall in between in 802.11b/g mode and probably double that in 802.11n mode, but maybe Johnsontp has more exact figures.

    2) How many of these devices would I need to connect in a three story brick building with 30 rooms separated by brick walls?
    At least 2 or better 3 (one for each story). But take into consideration that the AirTime is divided by all 4 APs and by all 30 client devices! Read on.

    3) Wouldn't a better setup be to have the (WBS210) & (TL-ANT2415MS) on the roof of (B) with a single CPE on (C) with LOS?


    Sure, at least for (D). But for local coverage of (D) I would connect an AP to the CPE by wire. A CPE has directional antennas, which are suitable for directional links, not for omnidirectional coverage.

    Anyway, it is very difficult to ensure that the WBS/CPEs used for the transfer network do not interfere with the local networks of 3 or 4 local APs in 2.4 GHz band. You just have not enough channels in this frequency band to ensure a clean setup. I would use 5 GHz equipment such as WBS510/TL-ANT5819MS and CPE510 for the transfer network and 2.4 GHz APs for local networks inside the buildings connected to the CPEs by wire.

    But anyway, you have to test it before deciding finally, no matter which setup you want to choose.
    Last edited by R1D2; 05-08-2017 at 10:17.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by beamboy View Post
    Most of the mobile/laptop connections will be from (A) to (B) which is 10-15 metres and (B) has LOS to (A) through the front of the rooms.
    From 1-7 to (D) is just a bonus if the connection is good. Hopefully not many people will be standing at the back fence trying to connect.

    Sorry for all the questions but it is very hard to find real world information on these products.
    1) Would the Tp-Link products (WBS210) & (TL-ANT2415MS) improve on what the current device does http://tinyurl.com/lm6m7xh ?
    2) What is the coverage range of these two devices using them on the roof of (B) as an AP.

    If I go with Johnsontp's setup
    1) What is the range of the TL-WR841HP V3 router?
    2) How many of these devices would I need to connect in a three story brick building with 30 rooms separated by brick walls?
    3) Wouldn't a better setup be to have the (WBS210) & (TL-ANT2415MS) on the roof of (B) with a single CPE on (C) with LOS?

    I am just confused as the current 10 year old device seems to work it is just slow I assume limited due to the 802.11b with the new 100Mbps Internet connection.
    I am open to suggestions and didn't mean to sound rude to Johnsontp and I like the idea he has suggested.
    WBS210 or WBS510 with sector antenna is better than its current slow b / g device, TL-WR841HP V3 can cover an area up to 929 square meters in theory according to TP Link.
    Http://www.tp-link.com/en/products/d...L-WR841HP.html

  8. #8
    Thanks again for all your advice, I have decided to go with the following configuration, hopefully it will work out well..
    B) WBS210 + TL-ANT2415MS
    C) CPE210 (pointed LOS at TL-ANT2415MS) + TL-WR841HP

    Hopefully the B) setup will send out wifi to multiple devices and to the CPE210 +
    TL-WR841HP to offer extra coverage inside the C) building
    This will also leave me room to add more CPE210 + TL-WR841HP's pointing back to B) base into the future.

    Will post back with results.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by beamboy View Post
    Thanks again for all your advice, I have decided to go with the following configuration, hopefully it will work out well..
    B) WBS210 + TL-ANT2415MS
    C) CPE210 (pointed LOS at TL-ANT2415MS) + TL-WR841HP
    Consider use of 5GHz devices (WBS510 / TL-ANT5819MS / CPE510) for the directional link, especially if you plan to add more CPE/AP combinations in the future.

  10. #10
    In my anticipation of the new parts arriving (WBS210 + TL-ANT2415MS) I am still brainstorming on what else to purchase.
    Some more questions..
    1) if I mount cpe210's on the outside of the building will they work in client mode to feed the TL-WR841HP V3's via cable inside without MaxStream? ie. does the wbs210 act as an ap for the green beam and still feed the cpe210's?
    2) if yes would there be a way to repeat the signal through to 'future expansion coverage area' (ideas on how?)
    3) what do I do about the people behind B) ?
    4) maximum users 'mobile phone/laptops' would be 30-40 people (normally 10-20 people) (only Internet is needed no other networking)
    5) POE LINK is providing a 100megabits per second Internet connection

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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by beamboy View Post
    1) if I mount cpe210's on the outside of the building will they work in client mode to feed the TL-WR841HP V3's via cable inside without MaxStream? ie. does the wbs210 act as an ap for the green beam and still feed the cpe210's?
    Yes. But you are limiting AirTime for the CPEs meaning bandwidth will decrease proportional to users connected directly to the WBS.

    2) if yes would there be a way to repeat the signal through to 'future expansion coverage area' (ideas on how?)
    As I wrote: use 5 GHz feeds from WBS to CPEs, including the future expansion coverage area. Use TL-WR841 for indoor or EAP110-Outdoor for outdoor distribution of 2.4 GHz signal to clients. This way you get full 100 Mbit/s data speed of the Internet connection to all CPEs, TL-WRs and EAPs (equally divided) with best AirTime coverage possible. Use MAXtream (w/o 'S') if there are two or more CPEs connected to the WBS to get AirTime fariness.

    3) what do I do about the people behind B) ?
    EAP110-Outdoor. It covers 360

    4) maximum users 'mobile phone/laptops' would be 30-40 people (normally 10-20 people) (only Internet is needed no other networking)
    Depending on surf pattern of your users, you would need two APs for 30-40 people if they should get enough AirTime to keep data flowing. If 30-40 users connect to a single WBS, expect significant drops in bandwidth due to CSMA/CA (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrie...sion_avoidance). MAXtream helps to avoid this (among minimizing other problems such as the hidden node problem).
    Last edited by R1D2; 06-30-2017 at 01:29.

  12. #12
    Installation of the WBS210+TL-ANT2415MS on the roof of B went well today. I have it pointing at an upward angle of about 3 degrees. Most of the rooms in C have decent good signal - 3/5 bars. I was surprised at how directional this antenna is.. as soon as you walk past the end of the C building either end the wifi signal dissapears there is also no signal out the back of building C as expected and no signal in the stair wells. I did get get enough of a signal behind B so it doesn't need an EAP.
    I was unsure what to put into the WBS210 settings for the TL-ANT2415MS for 'Antenna Gain' so I put in 15dbi as the Antenna specs say which dropped the Transmit power dBM down to 5. I just left 'Distance setting at 0'.
    Also noticed that transmit beamforming option is missing from my settings so i assume it is just on.
    Sitting 3 meters directly in front of the Basestation yields 42.27Mbps (internet wired connection at modem = 92Mbps) - so happy all in all.
    Also found the two M6x35 bolts to be too short so left off the self tightening washer.
    Hopefully I have the gain setting correct, not sure. Will continue to build on this project for indoor / out the back coverage in the near future.
    Last edited by beamboy; 07-06-2017 at 08:29.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by beamboy View Post
    I was unsure what to put into the WBS210 settings for the TL-ANT2415MS for 'Antenna Gain' so I put in 15dbi as the Antenna specs.
    That's the correct setting.

    Also found the two M6x35 bolts to be too short so left off the self tightening washer.
    I reported this "bug" last year to TP-Link already. Makes me wonder why they still deliver wrong bolts. Should be M6x40.

    Great that it finally works for you! Have fun!

  14. #14
    Had time for a quick tweaking session today,
    Set: Antenna Gain: 0 (20dBm)
    Max TX Rate: MCS6 (Lowering this increased signal strength)

    The connection speeds are now impressive within the whole building even the end rooms ( around 64Mbps !) even the back of the building C and the stairwells now get 22Mbps.

    Awesome stuff!
    Last edited by beamboy; 07-07-2017 at 22:52.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by beamboy View Post
    Set: Antenna Gain: 0 (30dBm)
    You should be aware that 1,000mW EIRP for 2.4GHz band is illegal in most countries and in the worst case your WiFi equipment could be seized (again depending on the country).

    Max TX Rate: MCS6 (Lowering this increased signal strength)
    Reducing speed does not lower signal strength, but avoids codecs you probably could use if signal strength is properly aligned to the distance.


 

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